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Author
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Topic: Att: All Level Gurus
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Torry
Member Posts: 262
From:Melbourne, Vic, Australia.
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-25-2001 05:33 AM
  
First off, this IS NOT a bitchfest. Just a few comments on things that have grabbed me on playing 200+ levels.Now, I have read thru the manual and realise just how much time and effort goes into these things, so to all you guyz out there who take the time, well done. However, and you all knew there would be an "however".............. First off, as these levels are all (in the main) based on existing TR levels, they start to become very similar in feel and appearance. New textures need to be used to break up this monotony and they are starting to appear at Editor sites if you go looking for them. Please, get away from the standard TR4 stuff that we've all seen a thousand times. New textures entirely would be brilliant but that IS asking a lot, I know. What about the TR2 and TR3 textures that are now available?? Level locations. For gods sake get away from Egypt. I have seen about enough sand, rubble, palm trees et al to last me for years. I would love to see an underwater playground akin to the Maria Doria (?) levels in TR2. Under the ocean in a sunken ship, how great was that? Also, that burner puzzle was pure design excellence. Took me FOREVER to get thru that. The underground levels in London TR3 were also a nice change as was Antartica. As I said, I have downloaded 206 levels and around 20% of these crash to the desktop when the game reloads to the start screen, as it does whenever Lara dies. Most frustrating guyz and something to ensure doesn't happen. Other than that most are playable except two were SO BAD I simply deleted them. However, those are pretty impressive figures. 2 in 200 that are just woeful. Next, music and sound effects. Come on guyz. Even I can do that. I resampled Sad Planet's "I Love Lara Croft" and that now plays at the title screen in the editor. I downloaded Will Gell's music today and that is good stuff Will. Get it a bit more "Tombish" and use it at a start of one of your levels. Indulge yourself. Lastly (yeah I know), what about a little fun. Do something outrageous with the script and english .dat files. My editor instead of the "Playable Tutorial Level" says the "First F***ing Level". Now, don't use my idea as this is only for me and I am WAY over 18. Point being if I can do it, you lot should be able to do so much more even with your eyes closed. So I'm done. Keep those levels coming guyz so that Lara lives on forever. [This message has been edited by Torry (edited 04-25-2001).] IP: Logged |
robbase
Member Posts: 425
From:the other side of the puddle
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 06:28 AM
good points, but I think we all feel this way. don't worry, things are changing with the help of a few programming geniuses in our community. basically any level designer around hear could make some very beutifull and unique settings to play in. but what good is that when you only have Egyptian enemies to place in it. as I said don't worry. new wads are popping up like hot cakes and with other new programs we can retexture and reshape objects.
so sit back and hang tight. your going to see some amazing things in the coming months. 
Building an archive of TR. Tools: past, present, and future.
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Torry
Member Posts: 262
From:Melbourne, Vic, Australia.
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-25-2001 06:35 AM
Now you've gone and gotten me all EXCITED>................................IP: Logged |
Michael P
Member Posts: 205
From:
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 08:09 AM
200+ Levels downloaded and played? - WOW! I am impressed. My count is approaching 40, but I built three of my own first before I started playing I agree with most of what you say and Rob is right, of course, there are more and more possibilities and I am sure we will see great stuff coming our way soon (Neil's Titanic Level, Dhama's Tower Bridge etc. etc.) And while I have the 2 of you in this thread together, with apparently a lot of Custom Level experience, come on you can pull of a couple of more reviews for my site. Still 100+ Levels unrated and as you have played them all (Torry at least), why not just pick a few and make it from a Guest Reviewer to a regular staff member (ie >10 reviews) ...your name at the top of my page with just a count of 1 review next to it really looks a little..., well, you know what I mean Don't let Sash and myself have all the fun on our own! ------------------
HAPPY RAIDING!
Michael.  IP: Logged |
robbase
Member Posts: 425
From:the other side of the puddle
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 08:47 AM
sounds great Michael,
as I said before I've still only played a small handful so far.
once I have the time to get some more under my belt I'll be more then happy to submit my reviews on your site. _Rob_
P.S. please feel free to pinch this banner for a link to me.
link to http://paradox730.tripod.com/trtoolbox/ thanx!
Building an archive of TR. Tools: past, present, and future.
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Colin Grigson
Member Posts: 776
From:LONDON, ENGLAND
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 08:49 AM
I am actually a bit annoyed by this. Sorry, but is does sound like bitching. The original trle is based around Eygpt so it take some getting round, however I have played loads of fan-made levels that have broken this completely. Adding sound ups the download size which is never popular. No level on our site is put up for download without script and english files which include load cams, so no game would crash as long as you install the files, these (or more specifically script.dat/txt) stops the game crashing on reloads or when Lara dies or when you actually make it all the way to the end. I'm not trying to argue with you, but it did sound like bitching about something which you get for free. Look at it this way, to play 200 levels in an offical TR game would cost you how much?Col. ------------------
Come and visit us for all manner of TRLE related goodies  New this week Black Palace, Lara's First Try, L'antica Akragas, The Lost Temples of Egypt, Mercenary Depot and The Updated Celtic Folly Levels. [This message has been edited by Colin Grigson (edited 04-25-2001).] IP: Logged |
wgell
Member Posts: 254
From:Lochwinnoch, Scotland
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 12:55 PM
Core gave us a very limited editor. In fact it is barely a "Level Editor" at all it`s more of a "Partial TRLR Editor" Getting away from the Egyptian thing is a lot of work. But so is creating any level just using the existing wads. As for adding music and sounds that increases file size to massive proportions that puts people off downloading not to mention the creators uploading. Gotta remember in the UK Internet time costs dough and there is webspace limitations to think of!My advice to designers is to concentrate on the level design, playability and puzzles. Make them fun to play and it doesn`t matter if they`re set in Egypt or Auchtermuchty!  Crashing to the desktop is a problem caused (as I recently discovered thanks to Michael P) by load screen parameter problems in the script files and is easily sorted by finding a good potential load screen within the level and holding down F1. This will display the load screen parameters. Replace the existing parameters in the script file with these ones and that stops the crashing. I for one take a lot of time to make sure my levels are crash and bug free. And also make sure that Lara can`t get stuck in a level!! So Torry I understand your frustrations but it`s just if not more frustrating for level designers using this very limited editor with only a few wads and a very sketchy manual. Also there is the question of time. I`ve made four levels and am about half way through a fifth. I maybe spend and hour or so each evening at most. I do other things. I work. I have a wife, son etc etc I`m amazed I get anything done at all!!  After this fifth level I am planning a more customised one that won`t be Egyptian but I can`t say I`m looking forward to having to edit the objects etc in order to do that. If only Core had given us an editor that let us create a wider selection of TR level types. The stuff from TRC would have been much more fun to play with I think! But at least we have an editor of sorts. It took Core long enough to release it. Just a shame they released what they did! ------------------
Will Gell
www.wgell.net Download Raid On featuring Lara...
www.wflg.clara.co.uk/music/raidon.mp3  IP: Logged |
piega
Member Posts: 151
From:Netherlands
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 04-25-2001 01:34 PM
Well i like egypsian levels very much and i could make another 100 levels with this editor. If you are creative enough you can do so much with it. And as for textures, you can make so many differend locations with the same texture set if you just use them correctly. You can do so many rooms with a mood in shape and lightning. Well that's just mine opinion...IP: Logged |
wgell
Member Posts: 254
From:Lochwinnoch, Scotland
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 01:46 PM
You`re right piega Creativity is the key to level design. I too could go on and on creating levels with the original wads but I have to admit that the editor is limited. Too limited. But with a little imagination and thought there are still great levels that can be made. There have been one or two times that I`ve been stuck when making a level. Couldn`t think what to make Lara do next. Then all of a sudden a wee idea comes up and away I go. At the end of the day the animated objects etc do not let you create totally original puzzles. For example we all know what to do when we see that black pyramid in the Cleopatra`s Palaces wad but the trick is to make it hard for Lara to get the four beetles. There are three main puzzles types that will keep people on their toes. Mazes, timed doors and jumping puzzles. Using these and mixing them together along with flames, spikes, rolling balls, traps, blades etc etc mean a whole load of fun is there to be made. As I said it`s the playability and puzzle design that makes a level in my opinion. Not the location or the eye candy.
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Will Gell
www.wgell.net
Download Raid On featuring Lara...
www.wflg.clara.co.uk/music/raidon.mp3 [This message has been edited by wgell (edited 04-25-2001).] IP: Logged |
inchdix
Member Posts: 809
From:hornchurch, essex. england.
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 04-25-2001 04:09 PM
To be honest.... there are so many texture sets available that what a level looks like is not the issue.... we are limited with enemies and objects, but a guy with a gun is just that... he doesnt have to be Egyptian. Same goes for a skeleton or a wraith or a crocodile.Really you should just give it time Torry, after all, the editor has only been around for six months and it taskes time getting the hang of things with it...... My last level(s) took over two months to complete and even then I know I could have done more to them...... time consuming huh? Inch ------------------
I WAS PRESSING THE DARN WALK BUTTON !!  IP: Logged |
Torry
Member Posts: 262
From:Melbourne, Vic, Australia.
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-25-2001 04:17 PM
Colin, I don't know why you feel that way. Your site is one of the ones I visit on a daily basis. Was not "having a go mate", just airing some thoughts. Understand about file sizes but geez, with sites that support resume, throw that level into Gozilla, start the download and go to bed. I would download a 60meg zip without a second thought. Understand about limitations in some countries. Pity. Maybe we are spoiled down here In Aus!!!! Michael, point taken. I must admit to not knowing what reception I would receive as Sash is already doing heaps and she is from Melbourne too. However, I will amend this oversight..................... IP: Logged |
Michael P
Member Posts: 205
From:
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 07:09 PM
@Colin,don't be so hard on Torry here - I suggest you play 200+ Custom Levels and then we ask you again what you think - lol. Until I had started playing some more levels I was more where you are, but when you get the hang of playing a level or two per day (and some out there are really not that thrilling) the repetition effect hits hard... Good discussion though, and I strongly support the points made about creativity and that puzzles should be driving the level and the surroundings make it look nicer but I could have a lot of fun in well designed Egyptian style levels like forever... @Torry, don't worry about two Melbournites reviewing on my site. Actually, Sashs reviews are pretty close to mine in terms of where we end up with the rating of a level, while you seem to have a bit of a different perspective (comparing yours and my Tamuhnra review), which is great! So, looking forward to get more from you ------------------
HAPPY RAIDING!
Michael. IP: Logged |
MichaelB
Member Posts: 217
From:
Registered: May 2000
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posted 04-25-2001 08:46 PM
where is Auchtermuchty, anyway?  Well, I have been mostly quiet lately, what with family and work (and gaming of course!), but this post has caught my eye and my heart. We've (my wife and I) been T'Raiding since the start. We still have our good old Diamond VooDoo card, which when we retire it, will be carefully framed and mounted on the wall. It has earned its place. We have purchased each game at its release, haved played each one with zeal, and waited patiently for the next release. We discovered the level editor and tried out the first tentitive player-levels, and frankly I am amazed at how many levels and how many websites have been created to this end. We have played something on the order of 40 player-made levels and most have brought us much joy. For example, we are currently playing City of Blezqi Zatsaz by Fabio Ribeiro (his first attempt, but "wow") and we were both amazed at the level of professionalism that Fabio has brought to the table. I find it hard to believe that so many people would put so much time and effort into creating such wonderful pieces of work... without monetary compensation! The efforts of programmers and designers who have created all of the level-editing and game-playing tools in only six months' time is absolutely astounding! To all of those out there feeding the fire, thank you and keep up the great work! Maybe one day, we'll even have a level of our own to submit! But maybe by that time, level editing will be even easier!! ------------------
How can I be dead already?  [This message has been edited by MichaelB (edited 04-25-2001).] IP: Logged |
Torry
Member Posts: 262
From:Melbourne, Vic, Australia.
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-25-2001 10:01 PM
Psssst, Michael P. New level............
Ich wollte die Jungfrau besteigen........
Sie lag in der Sonne vor mir.............
What do you think???? ROTFL.
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Colin Grigson
Member Posts: 776
From:LONDON, ENGLAND
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-25-2001 11:42 PM
TorrySorry for sounding off yesterday, I had a **** day at work, and I shouldn't have posted what I did, thanks for supporting our site, and I'm sure we both appreciate the time and effort that goes into producing some free fun for all. Col. IP: Logged |
mirai
Member Posts: 94
From:Tokyo, Japan
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-26-2001 01:33 AM
don't you worry!TOMB RAIDER TOKYO is coming! 5 months work on just 1 LEVEL! 16 levels in all.
The other levels are building but won't
be ready until xmas. The level editor is not limited, as the guy
says, you have to use your creative genius, plus all the excellent hacking software found
here. TRWEST changed everything. MIRAI ps. But I agree, it is time we stopped making test levels,
and make some real works of design.
And don't forget eventually the non moveable objects in TR2, TR3 & TR3 LA will be part of the object pool.
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Tijay
Member Posts: 31
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-26-2001 08:13 AM
Hi, I must say itīs right. Creativity is the Key. But something everybody must know : Not every Levelbuilder has the tools, progs, time or the Pc to practice his creativity.
Only good ideas arenīt enough.So there is another thing makes some helpful people going frustrating. A lot of times some guyz are crying for new textures. So i have ripped some textures from games like NOLF, Half-Life, SOF, Quake and more to build levels without the egyptian flair. But if you post some links here, what you get back ? Nothing, absolut nothing. No positive feedback, only nothing or boring comments - download isnīt fast enough or something like this. For what also i have to upload anything (also dozens of others)?
This is the major prob in this community - so i think about.
C.U.
Tijay IP: Logged |
wgell
Member Posts: 254
From:Lochwinnoch, Scotland
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-26-2001 10:22 AM
Auchtermuchty is in Fife, Scotland.When people talk about the editor I always take it that they mean the official one. I know there is an unofficial one and also unofficial additional software like TRWest etc but you can`t expect these things to be used by everyone. They have appeared because of the official editors limitations. To say the editor is not limited because of TRWest is a little misguided. It`s BECAUSE it`s limited that these programs exist!!!
The editor IS limited but still capable of producing a load of fun levels if the designer puts their mind to it. But yes the object and texture editors etc all make it possible to create more original and varied levels which is no bad thing. ------------------
Will Gell
www.wgell.net Download Raid On featuring Lara...
www.wflg.clara.co.uk/music/raidon.mp3 IP: Logged |
WereWolf
Junior Member Posts: 6
From:France
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-26-2001 11:27 AM
Hi everybodypredictable ...from the beginning if Eidos don't provide us a complete editor giving us the ability to build really different kind of levels people will get bored of all that stuff within a year ... 6 monthes ...only For those who are already fed up with the
egyptian environment taste the taste of the dark side of the editor ... I mean the one and only made by the fans ... You'll see that Turbo Pascal is not simply the guy who wrote STRPIX ...he has made much much better... There are at least 30 levels to play from TR1 to TR3 . An amazing TR1 was just relesead in march ..a new TR3 is coming soon ... The real LARA is not DEAD. CU
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moose562
Member Posts: 861
From:London, England
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 04-26-2001 03:46 PM
dont nice new clothes make the levels seem brighter? 
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Elpasodude
Member Posts: 1090
From: *~*~MARS*~*~
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-28-2001 09:26 AM
Unfortunatly, TGAs are hard 2 find. Wel, new ones, @ least. And all the TGA creator programs don't work (4 me @ least!).IP: Logged |
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